A New Phenomenon: Femme Flight

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A New Phenomenon: Femme Flight

The Butch Voices conference... a completely amazing event, clearly such a labor of love, and from what I could tell, a landmark occasion for the butches who participated. Which was, after all, who it was meant for.

Funny, though, that it ended up being such a turning point for me in relation to this community — because of how the social dynamics went down in the same old, same old way.

There's always some butch grandstanding onstage about how amazing femmes are, to thunderous approval... yet in my experience, most of you actually treat us without any real regard. I heard a lot of y'all talk a big talk about "chivalry," but then you pushed me around in line and in the crowds, held conversations across my physical space without acknowledging me (apparently expecting me to contort myself to accommodate you), and left me to take the bus home after all was said and done. (If I'd been driving, I'd have been offering rides myself, 'cause really, none of us want to be stuck at the bus stop with odd men giving us the hairy eyeball in the middle of the night. Before you worry about heroics and chivalry, just start with the basics of looking out for each other.)

Lots of you couldn’t hold a conversation with me without assuming I wanted to sleep with you. Many of you seem to hold the belief that being a femme means being constantly sexually available to every butch, FTM and trans-masculine person in the world and their brother, as a sort of public property — this, regardless of our actual status or interest in you, and with no consideration whatsoever that some of us have a sexual orientation that precludes those of you who aren’t women.

I’m not a consolation prize you’re entitled to by virtue of how badly you’re treated by the world at large.

Many of you, when expounding on butch/femme, think it’s romantic to say that your self-concept is dependent on the way I look and the way I look at you. This doesn’t sound romantic to me anymore. It just sounds really co-dependent.

Also, a lot of you assume or imply (or, in the case of one prominent presenter, explicitly state during a talk) that as a femme I am choosing between you and men. I'm not. I'm a dyke, and I'm too tired of having to explain that to you guys, of all people. When I am choosing between a butch and someone else, the someone else is another woman. Maybe you find it more useful to continually frame the dialogue as a comparison of butches to men because of course you’ll always come out ahead in that scenario. The real comparison that I make is very different. I compare you to other women — women who are available to be touched, who don’t need me to contort myself into a caricature trophy in order to feel okay about themselves, who are just plain considerate instead of having a hero complex and calling it “chivalry;” women who are willing to receive what I want to give — who will let me take them out and treat them for dinner, who will let me pleasure them, who will give me room to enjoy being a dyke as much as they get to enjoy it.

There are plenty of women who are butch enough for me who meet this description — I'm finding that generally they don’t identify as butches or if they do, they aren’t so heavily invested in it as to be much a part of the “community.” I’m also finding myself attracted to women who aren’t butch at all, but dykey and beautiful in a completely different way. I'm dating these women and not interested in going back. I've been flipped. Femme flight! It feels like soaring! I get to feel so open with women who don't ritualize, fetishize, and invest in their hang-ups, who don’t cultivate that accompanying weird self-aggrandizement — women who don't go in for all the showmanship, apparatus, and hypocritical big talk.

In short, goodbye “butch/femme” for me. I don't want to participate anymore in this dysfunctional "dance" which always promises and never delivers. Regardless of what I look like, I'm not a femme. I'm just a dyke. So long, and thanks for helping me grow.



Comments [183]

Not2Taem's picture

Familiar

Hi Blur,

I think we may live on the same planet. I hope your pic isn't looking like that because your transporter is acting up. That can be painful.

Smile

lmz's picture

i'm the transporter

Wink

Not2Taem's picture

Transport me to the land of

cfishy's picture

Yeah, well I think I'm on the

Yeah, well I think I'm on the pretty extreme end of the gender spectrum, or just plain lacking female communication skills having spent almost my whole life surviving the men's world. Few people like me have not transitioned; I'm too lazy and cheap to bother. So, hopefully these butch specific problems won't be as bad in the future as less people like me stick around.

As I was saying, these are just things I suspect was happening from my experience and viewpoints. But it was pulling teeth to make me write it.

minniesota's picture

Take care

Well, I can relate to sometimes having trouble communicating with women and not understanding them. Smile. Take care now.

Still searching for the right brainy quote.

minniesota's picture

Just for the record

Rusty, is generally very polite. To most. For example, when she gets me another beer and offers to open it up for me with her bottle opener. Smile

Still searching for the right brainy quote.

Robin Rigby's picture

Agreed, Rusty is polite.

Agreed, Rusty is polite. Right after the end of the porn talk video I mention my beer is empty and Rusty immediately gets me a new one. Thanks Rusty. On the other hand, the butch rules she posted some time ago said if your femme says she doesn't need a glass for her beer, pour it into one anyhow. That I find offensive. It assumes that if I'm a femme then I can't simply say what I mean and mean what I say.

I am not picking on Rusty. I assume those rules are at least somewhat tongue in cheek. I'm just using that as an example of how there's a fine line sometimes between polite and condescending.

Rusty's picture

Drawing Lines

You should have kept reading, Robin:

~ Commandment 10 Thou shalt not insist on following any commandment that pisseth her off. Not every woman wants you to open the door for her.

[Insert one of those smileythingamabobs to let you know I'm not trying to be a dick. Just trying to set the record straight.]

And yes, the list is more than a little tongue in cheek.

"When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will." ~ Pollyanna

Robin Rigby's picture

I did read the whole thing at

I did read the whole thing at the time Rusty, but couldn't remember all of it.  The beer thing just fit in with Minnie's comment. Smile

I think you and I both know there are jerks out there (not just butches or even just women but plenty of men) who think that kind of behavior is acceptable (without commandment # 10) and I think we would agree that it can be controlling or just plain condescending.  

Glad to see you didn't take my comment anyway other than how I meant it.  Just trying to make a point that one thing can mean different things to different people.  You say potato...

Not2Taem's picture

Who's cheeK?

Tongue

Just wondering.  Wink

Rusty's picture

Clever

"Who's cheeK"?

Ha.  At first I thought this had a misplaced apostrophe and started typing a wildly inappropriate response.

"When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will." ~ Pollyanna

Not2Taem's picture

Whew!

A narrow escape.  Smile

peacekitty's picture

"there's a fine line

"there's a fine line sometimes between polite and condescending."   I think you hit the nail directly on the head here.

"Fight Prime Time. Read a Book"

FemmeFlame's picture

Rusty

Thank you for this post. I know I'm not the only one appreciating waking up to read  this succinct and well written synopsis.

 

Flame

Grace Moon's picture

Dear Everyone

I hope we have come to see that we try and post ideas and blogs from all perspectives, but depending on the day you log on it may seem like its a one sided argument. Sometimes it seems there's too much fisting, sometimes too much butch hating, too much butch loving (we have a somewhat regular monday ThreeWay blog in which 3 femmes talk about butch love), Not enough femme love, too much politcs,... it goes on and on...

anyway we try,

and thanks for your input in this thread.

xo

 

tweet tweet @gracemoon

minniesota's picture

Not enough...

Grace Moon. I miss hearing about your art and such. More Moon, por favor.

Still searching for the right brainy quote.

Not2Taem's picture

Dyke Cake

Kneed it, and roll it, and put it in a pan. Bake me a lovely Dyke Cake, just as eclectic as you can.  Love

Tex's picture

here's to keep on trying!

It's getting better and better - people loosening up, saying what they feel, and others are taking it in stride...this week especially. The tone is changing from agreeing to disagree to simply expressing your feelings and entertaining the discourse. Thanks for the stage...

Nothing but love

Tex

Twitter Time @kdhales

Tex's picture

You're right...

and I apologize if my comment in any way made you or anyone else think I was bashing butches. I think more than anything, it was refreshing that L felt comfortable enough here to express her true feelings.

I was actually thinking of my experiences with large group of lesbians. You'll like this one - the stuffiest, coldest bunch of lesbians I ever intermingled with was at a comedy club - on gay ladies night! Comedians included! While in large groups: inevitably - even if the night began well - it did not end well....eating our own and not in a good way! I am too gosh darn laid back for drama!

My apologies,

Tex

Twitter Time @kdhales

Not2Taem's picture

1 on 1

You're absolutely right, Tex; 1/1 is the best. Cum on over and we'll get started on that discussion.  Evil

Rusty's picture

not necessary

Tex, no apology necessary. I didn't go back and re-read the comments (with one exception because I wanted to get the quote exact) before I posted. So I don't remember who wrote what and I'm not going to attribute any comment or sentiment to anyone on VP.

(I do remember your "batshit crazy" comment and that still makes me smile.)

"When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will." ~ Pollyanna

Fastgurrrl's picture

LHR, I enjoyed your blog

Thanks for sharing, and I could relate to a lot that you wrote. Sometimes I just don't know where the hell I fit in in this crazy world...I feel like I don't really "belong" anywhere on the "spectrum," know what I mean? And I sure don't know what the fuck I want now that I've turned 40.

JUST SAYIN'

L.H.R.'s picture

Hi Fastgurrrl, Thanks for

Hi Fastgurrrl,

Thanks for saying hi! I do know what it's like to feel like you don't belong, but I actually am very easy to place on this particular spectrum. Maybe too easy. I just don't want certain pieces of baggage that go with that designation. It's not actually possible to shed that baggage entirely because other people will still interact with me in a certain way--so the only room to budge is in my self-concept. Hence, this blog post.

FemmeFlame's picture

I attended the entire conference

Hello everyone,

I go by Femmeflame and to make a long story short I attended this entire conference and volunteered.

I am very definately a femme and very definately a lover and admirer of the best of what the folks who identify as butch put forward to the world.

I am also  a femme's femme *and* have many butch buddies, and a young butch  or two that I support in mentoring. I can be quoted as one of the first people to step up to any sort of femme/femininity bashing from anyone: butch, straight, trans,queer or otherwise self-identified.

Yes, I am well aware of the numerous reasons why people did not wish to support the conference. All of which were unfortunate because folks who probably really needed it - missed out on a great time.

But back to the main thrust of this blog: Butches disrespectful to femmes in action on the floor or statement from the podium.

My experience at BV was that this did not happen. However, I will not discount another femme saying it happened to her. That's unfortunate and I am sure that whomever it was needed to go to the Chivalry workshop or the one on misogyny... or the one on class differences....maybe they needed to spend a little more time with some of the amazing elders and younger people who were leading as organizers, participants, volunteers, presenters.

Maybe it happened in a few corners or in a few moments but actually I did not see anything but  butches paying attention to interacting with one another because they came to see, hear and talk to other butches... and what a range of diversity under that one label!

I would like to say that it is unfortunate that one blog based on the actions of a few (according to the blogger's own admission) could be put forward and agreed to by so many people who don't seem to have

a) attended the conference

b) seem to have anything but a stereotype of what those who identify as butch  can be.

What did I see as someone who was there for Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday?

Hundreds of Butches from different generations linking up.

Hundreds of Butches from different regions comparing and contrasting experiences.

Hundreds of Butches feeling free to be human without massive armour.

Hundreds of Butches hugging one another.

Hundreds of Butches showing that they share something really important at the root though the branches and leaves may not look the same.

Hundreds of Butches looking one another in the eye.

Hundreds of Butches being kind and careful to one another.

 

Yes femmes were there (and looking good and being fiercely intelligent and admired for beauty and brains) but guess what?

We were not the focus... we were not the prize - Butch solidarity was the prize good readers!

The bulk of the conference was about BUTCHES figuring out how to link up with other BUTCHES  intellectually, emotionally, collectively and individually without treading on any other part of the queer community's toes.

Now, I have to say again to the author- if something happened at this conference that was the final straw for you and you have desire for other femmes - then go forward with nothing but blessings on my part...

However it would be unfortunate that an event like Butch Voices could  be hit with all of your vitriol about  disrespect for femmes (and it is worldwide!) with an attempt to tarnish this particular event so quicky without any BALANCE to the article.

I went to support what I think of as the best of butch identity which is PLENTY and this conference did not fail and it isn't about the programming (which was excellent) it was about the ATTENDEES....

People showed up in numbers to support a part of their identity that they don't see reflected positively.On a very selfish note I was happy to see that the people who I have an innate desire for... aren't hardwired for misogyny and femmisogyny (a new word of mine-hey!).

It was a powerful and peaceful conference with many spikes of high energy and intensity and I appreciate being able to witness it the good hum that resonated through the weekend and beyond.

I wish this article had some balance... and I appreciate Rusty noting that the nice butches don't get noticed. Isn't that how it always is with so many other things?... Communities eyed with suspicion don't get much of a break. It just takes one or two people to make an error and the whole community gets lambasted.

LHR I am going to assume the best - which is to say it sounds like you've had some bad experiences with folks who happen to be butch. I've had them too - however the entire conference was not about us as femmes- actually and it would have been good of you to report the things about what you witnessed from the hundreds of other attendees who didn't interact directly with you and were working on things not related to femmes.

I'd appreciate that from anyone in the position of journalist.

For those of you who are reading this those of us connected on Facebook are reading AMAZING takes from folks who attended who are not big names... they came for themselves and put forward some incredible thoughtful feedback on what it meant to them to link with other butches.

I encourage you all before posting to take a look at the hard work done in the workshop listing: http://www.butchvoices.com/conference/program/

I'd also like to suggest you listen to the NPR show that featured two of the hardworkers for this space: 

http://www.npr.org/templates/stations/schedule/index.php?prgId=46

Sent with respect for balance and community dialogue,

Femmeflame (Vancouver, Canada)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

L.H.R.'s picture

It's not about the conference

Hi FemmeFlame,

Thanks for your thoughts! Just to be clear: I have no beef with the Butch Voices conference. Zero. None. I very intentionally began my post with that particular opening paragraph in order to make that point.

I really appreciate your respect for the event itself, but you don’t need to fiercely defend it from me; I’m not attacking it. I have much respect for it--for the work that went into it and the value it held for the butches who went--and I do very much appreciate that that was the point of it. My (admittedly very limited) experience there was not the point of the conference. And, as you mentioned, even other femmes had such a wildly different experience from mine that I marveled we had attended the same event!

This piece, however, was never intended or framed as a journalistic reporting piece about the conference. It is about my personal experience with letting go of trying to belong within a name and a community that doesn't work for me anymore. Actually, it was especially poignant and ironic to me that my "last straw" moments happened at an event that was so lovingly produced and obviously meaningful to so many.

The fact that my final straw happened at this conference was entirely incidental, and not the fault of the conference or its (very dedicated) organizers. The thing that moved me to write wasn't caused by Butch Voices; just illustrated by my experiences there.

That said, it wasn't just that I had "some bad experiences with folks who happen to be butch." It's that I have had one too many bad experiences with the dysfunctional dynamics that so often get attached to butch/femme. I don't believe those dynamics are inherent to butch/femme, but they're apparently attached there really securely, and I'm done struggling with them. Life is short, and I have bigger fish to fry.

FemmeFlame's picture

LHR - thank you for

LHR - thank you for responding to my posts.

As a femme, I agree. Isn't it true that the people that we are attracted to or desire have the greatest impact on us for better or worse? I have handed over my femme card to friends more than once when butches I have cared for manifest unacceptable behavior. Or neither side of the butch-femme equation  was working out. In that moment or series of moments  I didn't want any match or label called butch romantically attached to my femme identity or body. Femme is an identity which I hold dear (as you seem to) with or without a butch in sight which is why my workshop at Femme 2006 was titled Femme as an Island... and was all about not being in the butch backpocket to be seen.

A whole lot of pain had occured that caused me to put that proposal forward and so I hear you when you echo me and say life is short and you have bigger fish to fry...

We just have to watch who the hot oil splashes.yeah?

I wrote a big response and have now deleted it.

In brief:

1)If I didn't do a decent job re the shuttle organizing - let me know please.

2) If someone presenting said something problematic - have you let the organizers know in a direct email to them?

 

Flame

 

 

 

 

 

Robin Rigby's picture

My understanding of what it

My understanding of what it means to be a blogger is that a blogger is not a journalist. Bloggers write about personal experiences, thoughts, feelings. Journalists report facts (unless they work for Fox News). It's great that yourtime at the conference was positive. LHR's were not. That's just her personal experience.

I also got the impression that she wasn't running off into the arms of a femme. I got the impression that she's decided this dynamic is not for her and is off to find a dyke who either shuns further labels or uses a different label. But that's only my impression, I'll let her speak for herself on that point if she cares to elaborate.

FemmeFlame's picture

@ Robin Rigby - thanks for your comments

You know I hear you but I think this is a section of an online magazine... and I get it that blogging and journalism are considered to be in two different spheres but for me they are not. I read this as a piece approved by the magazine and listed under an official section of the magazine. So is it journalism of the traditional kind or is it is blurry?

The fact these days in the internet - what gets blogged gets posited as general news, and a general hard core truth and while it is one person's take or truth it gets extended to be the only take.

- I wrote this not to say she didn't have reason to have a bad experience. She did... but I think it's a great disservice to community leaders  who put the time to make an event happen have their community of attendees besmirched by folks reading this  who were not there based on one story.

Which I  still hold and consider legitimate. I believe her.

If I stated that wasn't my experience and that is being considered disrespectful to her experience I'm sorry that it's being read that way. Perhaps I should have reiterated her own words which was that this harrassment occured with a few people of the many.

Most of my comments were more directed to the folks  responding who were not there and had no interest  in seeing beyond their  negative concepts of what a butch is... or isn't as (it seems) mostly non-butch identified folks. I wrote what I witnessed that had nothing to do with our shared identity as femme with experience (whether good or bad )and more to do with why people  who are butch showed up and why.

The way her piece lines up could be read like  it was a happy event for those who attended because it was one big misogynistic femme-disrespecting butch fest.

Which it was not.

Even tho' she herself said that in that space (and I am still interested in how long she was there) it was a few. Readers have jumped on it to say that this is an issue about all butches... and you know... I see incivility all the time but I don't stereotype all dykes as being problematic.

I have already stated my own femme solidarity around misogyny and I identified femme-on-femme connection precisely because there is also a stereotype out there that femmes ( like me)  who like butches despise or scorn femmes who do sexually or emotionally connect with other femmes. You are right though it might be that she doesn't wish that. Hell she can chose whatever she wants to...label or no label.

However the power of this piece is that it  seems to position the Butch Conference  (in it's entirety) as her reason to take femme flight. Might not have been her intention but once people jumped on it - what we get is a few people's behaviour which happens all over being reported in a way that tarnishes an event and an entire community where workshops directly addressed such things and other things.

Again... as I stated to the room via Rusty - if there was an issue - put it out there to the conference organizers as it happens or in feedback. It might be other femmes experienced it too. Tell the organizers. At the Femme Conference in 2006 a number of femmes were feeling some problematic behaviour and gave that feedback to the organizers.

I have been a femme for 16 years and out for 17 of those years. I've seen alot of bullshit in the lesbian, trans, femme and butch communities. I have experienced problematic behaviour as well. I personally don't care what the hell the person's title is that shit has to be clamped. Report it to the people who are responsible please... and let them respond before smearing the entire effort to the world (that is the www)

I am not writing this to be right and have her be wrong. I'm saying here's another take on the entire conference and what people were doing lest it seem like it was just a big hook-up event... with femmes arriving only to  be trolled  and jostled by the butch participants who only came for only that reason.

Again, sorry some shit went down as a part of the 4 days of community building.

LHR: Feel free to email me or address me here. I am at femmeflame@gmail.com.

That's plenty. I don't live around here on this VP block so I leave I'm heading out...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Diana Cage's picture

journalismism?

For the record

I'm both pals with some BV organizers and all, AND I'm responsible for putting LHR's post on VP. Is it journalism? No. But do I think she had something to say? Yes.

So really what it boils down to is LHR's post was something an ex (very butch) girlfriend of mine found elsewhere. And then she sent to me. I then emailed LHR and asked her if I could publish her on VP.

Putting stuff out to the organizers is fine... but are you implying that someone shouldn't make their negative feelings known publicly? Because if so, I can't agree with you. I like having access to as many different experiences as I can. And I found LHR's post really moving.

 

 

minniesota's picture

Suggestion

I think having a little editor's note with that information would have been useful to me, i.e. knowing that the blog was published another place and then VPM invited L.H.R. to post it here. Just a suggestion for future interesting topics, such as these.

~Mins

Still searching for the right brainy quote.

Not2Taem's picture

Genre

Flame,

I think about it in terms of genre. There are a great many excellent books out there. One does not evaluate a mystery by the attributes that make an amazing romance novel. Even among blogs, the focus and intent of the writer must be taken into account. I have read a great many blogs right here on VP that give a well rounded synopsis of a special event, and usually have some personal perspective on the side. I have also read and thoroughly enjoyed many that use a topic or event to illustrate a personal point. In that type of blog, the emphasis is not on the event, but the personal experience, challenge, or growth of the blogger.

I found this blog to be very well written in terms of its intent. I saw the careful clarification at the beginning as an effort to acknowledge the event in a respectful way, but that was not the focus of the blog.

I am also very glad that you chose to present another perspective, rounding things out. As I see it, that is the blog cycle working at its best. Our responses are the community in Dyke Community.

Smile Tae

 

Robin Rigby's picture

Apparently you won't be back

Apparently you won't be back and won't see this so I'll just post for everyone else that I don't think there was any butch bashing or Butch Voices Conference bashing going on here at all.  In fact, most of the posters who called out bad butch behavior identify as butch themselves.  I think they were just decrying bad behavior in general.  

Rusty's picture

Welcome to the Park

Thank you for providing balance as another femme who attended the conference but had a very different experience. Unfortunately, the stereotype of the bully butch is persistent even among lesbians; I appreciate your effort to set the record straight (so to speak).

"When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will." ~ Pollyanna

FemmeFlame's picture

Thanks for the feedback and also re: being left on the street

Rusty: thanks muchly and yes butch bullies exist. I say send them by me *fierce  joking grin*...Exist? Yes.But they don't make the whole butch community. Exist? Yes? Direct them to Butch Voices.

Really we have alot of misogyny in the  ENTIRE queer women's community, period. It needs to be addressed...not just labelled as butch behaviour.

I'm really needing to get clear on using one person's bad experience to expand to an entire group. I'll give you my personal part here:

I cannot speak for every night however for the Saturday night event Butch Nation (if the original poster was there) I PERSONALLY volunteered to help with the rider situation from the hotel. It was announced at the final plenary and even though there was only one driver for many I stood in the lobby from 4:45 to 6:15 pm to ensure rides which came in the form of volunteers who had signed up, were organizers or conference attendees staying who were waiting for their cars and volunteered space.

I waited another 15 minutes and no one came down so that's when I went up to get ready in half an hour (wew!), catch a cab and got to the event 5 minutes before the show at 7 pm.

In all people got ferried... some decided to take the bus but it surely wasn't a lack of effort by the organizers. At the end of the night I made sure the bus that was organized was on the way and myself and 2 organizers got people loaded to head back. Announcements were made.

Again, I don't know what night, or which nights or days the original poster attended. As someone who did some registration duties there were lots of people who came for one day or two.. only. If you had signed up and got left behind somewhere between 6:15 and 6:45 when all that was in the lobby was an easel with my note in marker -  I am sorry that occured. I did the best that I could as did the organizers.

As  for public butch-femme stuff as a femme who was in stillettos that night I also appreciated the call for folks to give up seats for femmes in heels. I can see the folks who don't appreciate butch/femme groaning and pointing at this as a stereotype... but I can't see nor hear you because I'm having an excellent flash back to a PACKED and powerful hall of people who were appreciating the point of the conference which was butch performers being out and proud...

By the way... there were plenty of butch on butch combinations going on too... and that is also to be celebrated and upheld as any combination of dykes rocking each other's world.

Queer Life is sometimes short. Butch Voices  took 4 days to celebrate it.

Look for the next one in 2011.

Flame

PS: I couldn't edit my first one but I want the original poster to know that I share the same sense of outrage about disrespect for femmes... I'd like to suggest that the conference organizers are folks who would want to know if there was something in their organizing that could have been done better as a structure. They are seeking feedback. If you were harrassed by someone who was a main presenter then let them know - obviously that is something they would want to know.

 

Fastgurrrl's picture

Hey FemmeFlame

You seem pretty cool. Peace out sister! Smile

Steph's picture

This blog makes me kinda sad.

This blog makes me kinda sad. How can we expect the wider community to embrace us if we don't embrace each other? Who is anyone to question anyone else's lesbian credentials?
I personally have never encountered this type of thing but I guess in terms of "being lesbian", my world is very small and sheltered. I think I've said in the past that I feel incredibly naive regarding gender identity etc. I'm just me.

Joanne Robertson's picture

I enjoyed this ...

I just wish people here were willing to discuss it.

Is this how it's going to be?!  Someone blogs something a bit edgy and everyone ducks for cover, for fear of having their feelings hurt or offending their favourite hot VP butch?  The secret fear of never getting a 'reply' on VP ever again, because lesbians have long memories?!  Smile

... Uncomfortable as we are fast becoming facebook friends, as well - and what does it mean if we have a disagreement here on Velvetpark? ...... Will I still be able to 'like' that photo of your cat, zombie cats, dog, hot gf, half naked camping picture (thanks Grace) ... or comment on your latest witty musing?  

Maybe LHR's experience is an issue that needs to be addressed in the butch subset? ..... I don't know.  I'm not in it.  Nore do I have a butch of my own to test.  Maybe there are people lurking (but not commenting) who can shed some light on this?   

Perhaps women in general have become misogynistic against our fellows and ourselves - not to mention rude ... Whatever happened to "excuse me"? ...  Manners seem to have been mistaken for weakness.

It could have just been that a certain personality type was attracted to the BV conference.

As with most LGBT issues, I always seem to come back to the same thought ... "We should be better than this".

and we are definitely better than THIS:

http://www.pimpmywry.com/2009/08/queers-who-bash-back.html

Not2Taem's picture

Hi Joanne,

Could you tell me more about what you mean by everyone duck for cover? Folks may not all chime in immediately, or even at all, on every blog. I don't think that necessarily equates with fear, though I realize that in some cases it could. For me, it is often that I haven't had time to read or respond, especially now that the school year has resumed, or that I am trying to give less frequent posters or those with a more direct relationship to the topic a chance to respond.

Just wondering about your perspective.  Smile

Joanne Robertson's picture

Hi - I was referring to

the "running for the hills" comment (although I may have misunderstood that one) and others who have been 'burned' before (on other blogs) and don't want to share their thoughts for fear (or not) of another verbal ass kicking.

I like the way this blog conversation has developed, though.

Fastgurrrl's picture

Joanne!

RIGHT ON SISTER!

 

 

Rusty's picture

No thanks

JR, I agree. Bashing Back, especially as described in that link, is not acceptable. Thanks for the link.

"When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will." ~ Pollyanna

Rusty's picture

Cheese, please

"Nore do I have a butch of my own to test."

Well now I just feel like a lab rat, JR. I don't think this is a hard issue to discuss because it's "edgy". It just doesn't match my experiece. I do believe it happens; I just don't hang around with people like that no matter their orientation. And none of the online butch or femme friends I've met in person come anywhere close to what she described.

I do believe it is just a "certain personality type attracted to the BV conference". Imagine how the attendees of any conference "represent" their sub-culture. (Except for Comic-Con. My peeps represent accurately.)

"When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will." ~ Pollyanna

Joanne Robertson's picture

Sorry to make you feel like a lab rat!

That was purely tongue in cheek (we need a 'tongue in cheek' emoticon) ... I was going to say "I don't have an Emma of my own" - but I thought that might be inappropriate! Tongue

Rusty's picture

Another tongue

JR, my lab rat response was also tongue in cheek. (I wouldn't know how to use those emoticonthingies even if we had one for tongue in cheek. No telling what I'd end up with on screen.)

"When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will." ~ Pollyanna

minniesota's picture

It's not going on in my

It's not going on in my subset of butch or my social circle. It just doesn't happen around me. I am sorry if others behaved in a way to make others feel disrespected.

FYI, It is the beginning of the academic year and I have more on my mind than this blog. So if I don't respond in more depth, it has nothing to do with the topic and more to do with how busy I am this week.

 

Still searching for the right brainy quote.

Not2Taem's picture

An apple for the...

Sending you nice tart apple.  Wink

cfishy's picture

manners and misogyny

It's probably very hard to look at a trouphy or a consolation prize and think of her as a human being at the same time?

bekcat's picture

Perhaps women in general have

"Perhaps women in general have become misogynistic against our fellows and ourselves"

 

That has so been my experience.  It has been disheartening.  I have no lesbian friends here where I live.  Either they are so disfunctional and destructive or so cliquish that I couldn't get in.  Women can be so snotty to each other gay or straight.  I moves to this area almost 7 years ago at the suggestion of a friend.  She had a large group of friends, who she introduced me to.  I have never felt so out of place, so invisible, and at times inferior as this group made me feel.  It's a shame, really...they are the ones that missed out.  I moved on, but am not in a hurry to get involved with any other women other than the one I am in a relationship with.  I don't have time for the drama. 

I would rather hang out with my VP friends, who have made me feel welcome. 

It is what it is.

Not2Taem's picture

bekcat

*sending a nice little kitty belly rub your way*  Smile

bekcat's picture

PrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrPrrrr

PrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrPrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

It is what it is.