Diana Cage & Prof C: Gender & Sexuality Part Seven

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Diana Cage & Prof C: Gender & Sexuality Part Seven

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Comments [42]

LongBeachDogLover's picture

Minns, I hear you

Minns, I hear you sister.........

"I can’t believe we have been commenting on this video since Friday and not ONE of us has made a joke about fisting. What kind of lesbians are we?"

Tight?? Or, should I say.... cavernously challenged ??
Of course, I'm speaking only for myself.... Laughing out loud

shiva's picture

There is an interesting

There is an interesting article today in the NYTimes about butch lesbian glamour. I say interesting because of some of the observations, but the jist of the story escapes me.
http://www.nytimes.com/indexes/2009/02/22/style/t/index.html?hp#pagewant...

I really enjoy this column about sexuality, but I would urge the two of you to stop looking at things in such a male-linear fashion. Culture occurs in all sorts of directions and shapes simultaneously. It is circular at the same time as being other-shaped as well. That's how nature works.

Gender identity is the same way. In Hinduism, there is the image of Shiva who is at once many images and movements happening at the same time. You've seen the images of the multiple arms moving and multiple eyes, etc. This is to say that we are many people all at once.

To give you a brief example, I have seen supposedly tough butch women come into AA meetings for the first time and become like terrified dish rags. Their once defiant expressions now cast downward between their legs. Were they butch when they walked in the door and then transformed to something else once inside? No, I think not. The exterior was just that. An exterior. There were other identities kicking around inside.

We all possess many identities within us. They are continuously changing shape. I believe that this is what Prof. Crandall intimates by the word "intersecting," but again I would urge you to look at the male influences in your language. Intersectionality sounds like the confluence of two littered highways.

Straight white men create these false linear ideas because it gives them a more convenient way of measuring what they believe are their accomplishments. But linear thinking simply is not part of nature.

minniesota's picture

I can't believe we have been

I can't believe we have been commenting on this video since Friday and not ONE of us has made a joke about fisting. What kind of lesbians are we?

Taking the plunge, Minnie Laughing out loud

Still searching for the right brainy quote.

diana cage's picture

Not all of it was gay

Not all of it was gay porno... there were also all the books I wrote in there. Oh hm. Which I guess means more gay porno...

Allegra's picture

;-)

Wink

LongBeachDogLover's picture

You are absolutely right

You are absolutely right Allegra..........

Simultaneously, desire and passion are incredibly explosive. In the most beautiful way possible....

Not2Taem's picture

And this would be a bad thing

And this would be a bad thing because...? :?

Allegra's picture

In that case I want the list

In that case I want the list of the books Wink

Allegra's picture

Another one word ......

Another one word ...... passion !!!

Lezbeth's picture

Oh, I forgot, silly me. Do

Oh, I forgot, silly me. Do you know where it's buried so I can place some flowers on the grave?

Lezbeth's picture

I've tried to post this

I've tried to post this twice, but evidently the link is causing my comment to be diverted. Although somewhat off topic, the book I'm recommending for that stack (it's not porn) is one that helps younger queers go back to the roots of modern queer culture (in the 70s). The book is The Faggots and Their Friends Between the Revolutions. If you google it, the article is in the reference that starts out "wolfcreekfaeries."

It's good to be proud of what's been accomplished in the last 20 years. It's sad to me to lose what came before that, especially since I lived it.

Lezbeth's picture

Cute

Cute

simei's picture

Hahahaha! Maybe we'd all

Hahahaha!
Maybe we'd all appreciate *that* list too...
xx

diana cage's picture

I threw out all my other

I threw out all my other clothes. I only own one shirt now.

Grace Moon's picture

I hate to say most of it was

I hate to say most of it was gay porno.

tweet tweet @gracemoon

Erin Blackwell's picture

lezbeth, get real, this is

lezbeth, get real, this is 2009. scholarship is dead.

LongBeachDogLover's picture

Hi Katie..... it's awesome to

Hi Katie..... it's awesome to see you here. Wink

xxoo

lucia_2008's picture

My partner and I bought the

My partner and I bought the book, for academic reasons of course. and left it on the dining room table. Her mother came over for an unexpected visit the same day. She was walking around and chatting away, when she came to the table, she picked the book up and flipped through it. She turned a rather pretty shade of red, laid the book down, made a quick excuse to leave and promptly left. We looked at each other started giggling, my partner picked up the book and said we should keep it in the bedroom. This brought back a flood of memories. Wink

Smile...life is good!!!

LongBeachDogLover's picture

One word............

One word............ desire.
To me, that says it all.

No rules, no boundaries, no expectations. Just, pure desire.

LBDL
xxoo

Lezbeth's picture

Yes, some controversial

Yes, some controversial discussion. There were a lot of women who didn't like having lezzie sexual practices out there and illustrated for horny men to get off on. The images weren't airbrushed and staged (and I think the women were drawn with armpit hair) so I don't think that happened too much. Others felt exposed (literally) and yet others kept their books on their night tables as an invitation for lovers to peruse.

lucia_2008's picture

That is an interesting book.

That is an interesting book. The Joy of Lesbian Sex was the topic of lesbian discussion when it was released.

Smile...life is good!!!

minniesota's picture

LBDL, you have great

LBDL, you have great animation!

Still searching for the right brainy quote.

minniesota's picture

Oh, yeah, not sure if I owned

Oh, yeah, not sure if I owned that one but I remember having a book with line drawings. It was softcover. I should look in my boxes from that era. I could put it up on ebay.

Just thinking about the 70s is giving me the hives. Hahaha.

Still searching for the right brainy quote.

LongBeachDogLover's picture

Save me a seat Minnie !!

Save me a seat Minnie !!

Katie Liederman's picture

I think it's really cute that

I think it's really cute that you two wear the same thing everyday.

Lezbeth's picture

Here's the other one I was

Here's the other one I was thinking of by Lonnie Barbach, originally published in 1975.

http://www.amazon.com/Yourself-Fulfillment-Female-Sexuality/dp/038505825...

Lezbeth's picture

OH, she's very contemporary

OH, she's very contemporary compared to the books we were using as reference. For instance this one

http://www.amazon.com/Joy-Lesbian-Sex-Liberated-Pleasures/product-review...

It is written by hand with hand drawn pictures, a real collector's item. A foursome calling themselves "The Nomad Sisters" wrote, illustrated and published it. They had a ranch (Sonoma County, CA, I think) where I went for my very first pagan women's gathering...maybe 1978 or so.

minniesota's picture

Nah, the mirror stuff wasn't

Nah, the mirror stuff wasn't Susie Bright. Ugh. Susie was/is much more fun than that.

http://susiebright.blogs.com/susie_brights_journal_/Resume_Susie_Bright....

Still searching for the right brainy quote.

simei's picture

Love these conversations: Can

Love these conversations:
Can we have a list of the books on your table?
Can we have a syllabus from Prof. Crandall? (I'd love to know what you are teaching right now...)
Thank you for including us in your chats!

Lezbeth's picture

At least we're getting a

At least we're getting a chance to set the record straight (so-to-speak).

Lezbeth's picture

I didn't feel guilty, no

I didn't feel guilty, no matter how hard they tried...figured they didn't know what they were missing.

Was it Susie Bright who got us using mirrors to explore our mysteries? Did she write "For Yourself"? Forgive me if my advancing age makes things cloudy, but I distinctly remember what fully pleasured another woman and they seemed to know what they were doing as well.

minniesota's picture

Yeah, but didn't those

Yeah, but didn't those strident lezzie-feminists try to make you feel so, so guilty about it? You can tell which side of the lesbian sex wars I was on...

P.S. Thank YOU Susie Bright.

Still searching for the right brainy quote.

lucia_2008's picture

Lezbeth...I concur. History

Lezbeth...I concur. History isn't well written is it?!

Smile...life is good!!!

Lezbeth's picture

Whoa, Nelly...You young 'uns

Whoa, Nelly...You young 'uns are so cute. As a dyke who came out in the 70s, I totally disagree with the assertion (or insertion) theory about gender/sexuality exploration developing in the 90s. In the 70s, there were lezzie-feminists to whom no one would suggest a dildo. Some women had little tolerance for anything from shaved legs to lipstick, yet many loved penetration. And many of us were exploring our sexuality WAY beyond those bounds.

I knew lesbian mistresses in the early 80s who were very much a part of the queer scene and made no bone(r)s about their profession. A road trip to "Good Vibrations" in SF was the way to browse and buy a variety of restraints/toys/dildos and the ever-elusive strap that would stay secure. (On-line shopping and ordering was not yet an option.) Lesbian sex clubs provided opportunities for experimentation--ahh, what a woman can do with something as simple as a leather string necktie.

Was gender/sexuality discussed? Yes. Was there opposition for masculine gender expression from some quarters in the lesbian community? Absolutely. Feminists were attempting to define womanhood without oppression. Did we avoid fisting, dildos, restraints and leather because of it. NO.

Not2Taem's picture

:lol: PC, I am at your

Laughing out loud PC, I am at your service. Or would that be at Diana's service? Either/or/both; Just tell me when and where. Wink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z8RCfnWPOo&feature=related

She Wrote Me A Letter
Said She Couldn't Live With Out Me No More
Listen To Me Mister Don't You Here Me Ravin'
For My Baby Once More...Anyway

Professor Crandall's picture

i. am. dying, N2T. Can i

i. am. dying, N2T. Can i personally invite you to be a stand-in?

minniesota's picture

Julia, I love your idea oil

Julia, I love your idea oil wrestling idea. May I have a ringside seat and complementary bag of popcorn?

Still searching for the right brainy quote.

lucia_2008's picture

You two crack me up!!! :)

You two crack me up!!! Smile

Smile...life is good!!!

Not2Taem's picture

Julia, the twinkling star of

Julia, the twinkling star of our evening sky. Laughing out loud

I have been wondering about the look, too. Could the Prof possibly object? Me thinks Lady Di could get pretty darn adventurous when given free rein. Perhaps PC fears over stimulation? Exhaustion? Getting tied up and being fired for not showing up to work for 2 or 3 weeks?

Perhaps we should offer to serve as stand ins for breaks?
Wink

toodlin's picture

You are so cute together.

You are so cute together. That's all I can work up for this evening.

CA_Medicine_Woman's picture

Very interesting

Very interesting topic.

Several years ago, I did a paper on this related to the transgender population. I was trying to understand why some FtM and MtF transsexuals had such huge hangups about their genitals, and others didn't, when it came to actual sexual activity of any kind.

With the ones with hangups, those hangups were either imposed by the medical profession, or perpetuated by transsexuals themselves. The belief was, if you used what you were born with, then you weren't really a transsexual (especially if you enjoyed it in any way). Some therapists still subscribe to that theory, and will determine the course of treatment based upon that one factor alone. Another factor that came into play was sexuality. If a MtF was attracted to women, or a FtM was attracted to men, treatment would also be refused. In short, they were expected to be heterosexual in their new gender roles, but not allowed to derive any sexual pleasure in any way until after surgery. Nearly all who fell into this area were seeking to obtain surgery in North America or Western Europe. Most would retain those sexual hangups long after obtaining surgery, more than a few never really overcame them.

The ones without hangups typically either lied about their sexuality and enjoyment of sex, or simply sought treatment and surgery from alternative sources, typically outside the US. It wasn't that they wanted to keep what they had, or didn't have issues with the inconsistencies between body and mind, they just figured they would make due with what they had until they no longer had to. After surgery, nearly all reported sex being much more physically pleasurable. This more practical approach to dealing with sex and sexuality allowed them to adjust far better to their "renovations" than those who were programmed by the medical profession to believe sex was never to be enjoyed before surgery.

In the last several years, there has been a shift away from using sexuality or sexual enjoyment as a basis for determining the course of treatment for gender issues. Rather, the focus is now on making sure that the two issues will not interfere with a smooth and successful transition from one gender to the other.

Julia Watson's picture

Okay, what is that troubled

Okay, what is that troubled look on Prof C's face at the end when Diana says that it's okay for everyone to get off the way they like to get off? The wheels were still a-turnin' there! Teases.

And for the record, I think all lesbian sex wars should be decided by group Turkish oil wrestling matches. (At which strap-ons are, of course, totally optional.)